Colorado Cave Survey:  12 Feb 2001

Old Business
  o Cave Creek Caverns
      Bruce Albright noted that although we discussed the situation with
    the Fairplay ranger last year, no progress has been made.  Fred Luiser
    said that he has some time available, and will drive up to Fairplay and
    talk to the USFS again.  General reaction was that until we can get
    someone from the Fairplay office up to the cave, it will continue to
    be a low priority.

  o Groaning
      No comments have been received regarding the trail marker issue. There
    continues to be mixed feelings within the Survey as to the likelihood 
    that marking the main trails in the cave will prevent unnecessary off-
    trail travel, or whether it will lead to more people visiting the cave
    (since they will have more confidence of route finding).  Bruce Albright
    said that he would put a post on the Caver's Digest, and Amy Johnson
    said she would put a post onto the NSS Online Discussion Board, both
    soliciting information from other cavers about what has worked elsewhere.
    [as of 1 Mar 01, I don't think either post has sent]. Ed Larock noted that
    the routes through the cave have historically been marked by survey flags,
    and that the Pace map notes the survey stations at the main junctions.
    Much of the original survey markers are missing; Stuart Marlatt suggested
    running a "precision baseline" through the main travel route, with
    "permanent" markers at main junctions (brass tags/screws, whatever).

       The waiver list is currently > 1500 people, and includes much out of
    data information. The need to cull the list was discussed, with a general
    consensus that rather than selectively removing data, the entire list 
    should be trashed and everyone interested be required to re-sign a new
    waiver. There was some discussion about limiting the lifetime of the new
    waivers to five years, with such a notice printed on the waivers. The 
    current waivers will be obsolete immediately, and everyone will need to
    renew this year. [I previously, incorrectly wrote that the old waivers
    would be good for one more year. My mistake - bad memory.] There was also 
    some discussion about defining trip-leader qualifications (eg, have to have
    made 3 trips into the cave with a qualified leader before you can lead
    yourself). No decision yet.
    
       Dennis Laird will be the gatekeeper again this year.

       Need to talk to Larry Fish about the register data, and the need to
    get an annual report filed with the USFS.

  o Hourglass Cave
      Rick Rhinehart noted that there is a lot of info about Hourglass out
    on the web, that the cave is gated, but that the USFS is still withholding
    even cursory information from the caving community.  In addition, the
    entire evaluation of the cave was basically made without any input from
    the CCS, even to the point of bringing in speleological and gating
    "experts" from out of state. General grumbling ensued, with a basic
    consensus that information transfer should not be one-direction only,
    and that we need to communicate these concerns with the land managers.
    
  o Colorado Caves Website
      Rick Rhinehart noted that the new coloradocaves.org website has room
    for a Colorado Cave Survey page. We discussed putting up a Groaning 
    waive on the site, but decided that it would be better if perspective
    signers have to actually contact a live person. Stuart Marlatt will
    act as the Survey webmaster, and will get a survey page up in the
    near future [as of 1 Mar 01, I have a draft page started but not up].

  o Election
      Rick Rhinehart was elected the 2001 Colorado Cave Survey chair.

  o Next Meeting
      The next meeting will be in Glenwood Springs, hopefully at Fairy Cave.
    We will try and get all the USFS/BLM/etc offices in attendance.